Amazing testimony by vets to Congress today -- exposing Iraq war

It was be billed on Thursday as the first full-scale testimony in Congress by anti-Iraq war veterans, and it's a shame it has taken this long.  A statement on Friday by Matthis Chiroux, 24, who is now refusing to be deployed to Iraq -- after serving in Afghanistan and elsewhere as an Army journalist -- will surely get the most attention, but don't miss the rest.  

"I stand before you today with the strength and clarity and resolve to declare to the military, my government and the world that this soldier will not be deploying to Iraq," Chiroux said in a House rotunda today.

"My decision is based on my desire to no longer continue violating my core values to support an illegal and unconstitutional occupation... I refuse to participate in the Iraq occupation," he said, as a dozen veterans of the Iraq war looked on.

But there was so much more, and it follows equally vivid testimony yesterday by antiwar vets to the Progressive Caucus in Congress. It shows why some of us here have been so active in drawing attention to the vet suicide surge -- and the self-inflicted deaths in Iraq -- and the 300,000 suffering mental problems, also featured in my new book.

Former army sergeant Kristofer Goldsmith spoke of "lawless murders, looting and the abuse of countless Iraqis."  He said he had "self-medicated" for several months to treat the wounds of the war.

A terrific AFP report (see link) observed, "A group of veterans sitting in the hearing room gazed blankly as their comrades' testimonies shattered the official version that the US effort in Iraq is succeeding.

"Almost to a man, the soldiers who testified denounced serious flaws in the chain of command in Iraq."

Luis Montalvan, a former army captain, accused high-ranking US officers of numerous failures in Iraq, including turning a blind eye to massive fraud on the part of US contractors.

Ex-Marine Jason Lemieux told how a senior officer had altered a report he had written because it slammed US troops of using excessive force, firing off thousands of rounds of machine gun fire and hundreds of grenades in the face of a feeble four rounds of enemy fire.

Goldsmith accused US officials of censorship.

"Everyone who manages a blog, Facebook or Myspace out of Iraq has to register every video, picture, document of any event they do on mission," Goldsmith told AFP after the hearing.

"You're almost always denied before you are allowed to send them home."

Officials take "hard facts and slice them into small pieces to make them presentable to the secretary of state or the president -- and all with the intent of furthering the occupation of Iraq," Goldsmith added.

Matthis Chiroux's father, Rob Chiroux, a Navy veteran and self-described conservative who voted for George W. Bush twice, said he is now having second thoughts about the Iraq War.
http://www.breitbart.com/...
*
Greg Mitchell's new book has several chapters on suicides and related issues.  It is titled So Wrong for So Long:  How the Press, the Pundits -- and the President  -- Failed on Iraq and includes a preface by Bruce Springsteen and a foreword by famed war reporter Joe Galloway.

•  I watched it yesterday....

  Jason Lemieux, a Sgt. in the Marines, was the greatest testiomony I had ever seen.

  by Emile Henry on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:45:07 PM PDT

  •  Me, too. In horror. Incredible. I thought Jason L

    was great, also.

    This fits with what one of the retired generals said a year or two ago but never elaborated on, that our soldiers were "doing unconscionable things over there."

    It's about time that the military leadership was exposed for the kind of direction they gave our troops. Abysmal, at least some of it as it relates to how to treat Iraqi civilians.

    by Gorette on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:36:43 PM PDT

    •  I recommend this even though...

      Doing so works to push my own recommended diary off the rec. list.

      Good for you, Greg M.

      I deeply respect your work.

      by Troutfishing on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:48:40 PM PDT

      •  you'll be back, Troutfishing

        Your diaries are pretty much staples of the rec list these days, thank heavens. I've subscribed to you for years and it's good to see you finally getting the kind of attention here on kos that your work deserves.

        by kainah on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:47:54 PM PDT

      •  I'm tipping you for yielding the floor!

        Really appreciated your Hagee diary.  Only problem I had was in one of the videos I was unclear what was Hagee and what was commentary.  
        But the quotes you had were shocking and show how trivial the complaints against Wright are compared to what Hagee has said.
        How about doing the same thing on Parseley (Ohio preacher) -- or maybe you have?

        by Tamar on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:45:10 PM PDT

  •  "We end the war every day with what we do."

    These are amazingly articulate, factual, empathetic, and courageous leaders.

    So important that what they have done is made widely available.

    Obama and those running for the Senate and Congress have been given a gift by these wonderful soldiers - let us hope they make good use of it.

    Peace,
    Bob

    by understandinglife on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:02:40 PM PDT

    •  "Greatest threat to America today ...

      ... our corrupt government."

      So very true.

      by understandinglife on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:59:03 PM PDT

•  'Winter Soldier II'

  Here's a Link to listen to the testimony from yesterday  At the KPFA Site

  You can listen on the site player of KPFA at above link.

  KPFA broadcasts the Winter Soldier hearing on Capitol Hill, where Iraq war veterans will speak to members of Congress about the hard realities of the US occupation of Iraq. The special hearing to the Out of Iraq Caucus will be hosted by Aimee Allison and Aaron Glantz, part of the team that recently was nominated for a Project Censored award for KPFA's coverage of the Winter Soldier gathering in March.

  Or you can use other ways to listen:

  Play mp3 Stream:
  Uses your computer's media player (24kb/s mp3).

  Download this File (mp3):
  Download this program to your hard drive (this file is about 10.27 megabytes).

  This is a four hour report on KPFA

  IVAW has the C-Span Link To Watch up at their site and should have their own video soon.

  by jimstaro on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:47:22 PM PDT

  •  Feel free

    To add this to your diary.

    by jimstaro on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:49:33 PM PDT

  •  C-Span has the testimony it its archives

    You can watch it here.

    by bumblebums on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:38:24 PM PDT

  •  Apologies, jimstaro

    I missed the C-Span link in your comment.

    Thanks.

    by bumblebums on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:39:00 PM PDT

  •  thank you Jim for the great links

    by testvet6778 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:34:13 PM PDT

  •  thanks Jim

    this is so important for people to see, and as you know is being ignored by traditional media.

    The stories from WSI were both compelling and horrifying. And most of all heart-breaking.

    Perhaps the biggest insult of all, to not even listen to our veterans. I mean, listening is free.

    by whitewidow on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:15:45 PM PDT

    •  shrubmc tryin 2 distract w/ attacks. shameful.

      by concerned on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:49:26 PM PDT

  •  I'm watching in between reading Stunning Sad

    This confirms all the silences and uhhhs and ohs and incomprehensible responses I've received from my son since last November and a sense that he is in a position to be unable to speak but I sense that something is wrong, he has said so but that he will only talk with me when he gets home.

    My Son has in the meantime asked me to help his interpreter "V" to get out via the US program after serving 5 tours.  I have talked to V and met another interpreter who actually made it to the United States and endeavor to do so because my son asked me to do so.  

    My son wishes to honor V as this Iraqi young man is in danger, and also because of the extent to which he has risked his life for all of our Troops and my son is outraged that V cannot get out and faces more red tape.

    Thank you for this blog, I'm a member of IAVA and other Vet organizations.  

    I would encourage all of you to give $10.00 or more if you can, especially to IAVA because they are going to need the money for Matthis who has announced his intention not to return to an illegal and immoral war.

    A Blue Star Mom

    by IngeniousGirl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:10:47 PM PDT

    •  Please let us know if we can be of any help

      trying to get V and his family out of Iraq. This community is good at lighting up the phones and filling up email inboxes when we called upon. It would be an honor to help an Iraq who has done more for the cause than any American outside of the military.

      by blueintheface on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:56:33 PM PDT

  •  Winter Soldier Testimonials:

    On a day in the early summer of 2005, in the area of operation of the 42nd Infantry Division, there was a traffic control point shooting.  Traffic control point shootings are rather common in Iraq.  They happen on a near, or daily, basis.  

    What happened was a vehicle was driving very quickly towards a traffic control point.  A young machine gunner made the split-second decision that that vehicle was a threat, and in less than a minute, put 200 rounds from his .50 caliber machine gun into that vehicle.  That day, he killed a mother, a father, and two children.  The boy was age four, and the daughter was age three.

    Testimony of Geoff Millard, President of the Washington, D.C., Chapter of Iraq Veterans Against The War.

    After the officer-in-charge briefed it to the general, in a very calm manner, Colonel Roschel of the 42nd Infantry Division – this calm commander, turned in his chair to the entire division level staff, and he said, and I quote, "If these fucking Hajis learned to drive, this shit wouldn’t happen."  I looked around to talk at the other officers, at the other enlisted men, mostly higher enlisted.  As a sergeant, I think I was the lowest ranking person in that room, and I didn’t see one dissenting body language, one disagreeing head-nod; everyone was in agreeance that it’s true, "If these f’ing Hajis learned to drive, this ‘s’ wouldn’t happ en."

    This being just one 'tiny' detail...

    by aufklaerer on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:30:21 AM PDT

    •  ...continued:

      That stayed with me the rest of my tour.  I looked around every time that word, "Haji," was used, and I thought about that soldier who will carry that with him for the rest of his life, and I thought about the four Iraqis whose blood-line was ended on that day.  

      That's Geoff Millard again.

      And this is from Bryan Casler:

      But while on these convoys, I saw marines defecate into MRE bags and throw them at children on the side of the road, urinate into bottles, throw them at children on the side of the road. While stopped, take out their MRE bag, remove the chemical packaging that is activated by water, activated by moisture – this is what marines use, all service members with MREs use to heat their MREs – that is a moisture activated chemical heater. They would remove the chemical heater from the warning package that said, "Do not eat," with a symbol of a person and a X sign through them saying,  quote Do not eat this," and they would give that to Iraqi children to see the responses on their faces.

      Heavy stuff, I know.
      But we should honor the courage of these marines to speak up by spreading their word.
      Everyone should know what the day-to-day situation is like on the ground.

      by aufklaerer on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:40:39 AM PDT

•  They are being chewed up

  and spat back out.  Bring them home.  now.

  by Tony McArthur on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:47:23 PM PDT

  •  Matthis Chiroux = Hero.....Bush = Coward

    Makes me proud of our country that we have soldiers such as Chiroux and Kristofer Goldsmith.

    I stand before you today with the strength and clarity and resolve to declare to the military, my government and the world that this soldier will not be deploying to Iraq," Chiroux said in a House rotunda today.

    by frandor55 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:02:18 PM PDT

•  I was JUST going to diary this...

  Thanks for taking away my first diary...

  /snark

  by Goose for Obama on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:47:29 PM PDT

  •  some of us can't watch it, please give details.

    A new diary?

    No cable, no high speed....

    by revgerry on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:47:23 PM PDT

•  thanks for the diary

  I was afraid this might get lost in the Obama slapdown of Bush-McCain

  by bigforkgirl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:09:27 PM PDT

  •  I agree wholeheartedly.

    Amid the slapdown and the busy-ness of life, I'd missed this serious news.

    Chiroux is one of thousands of US soldiers who have deserted since the Iraq war began in 2003, according to figures issued last year by the US army.

    But while many seek refuge in Canada, the young soldier vowed to stay in the United States to fight "whatever charges the army levels at me."

    The US army defines a deserter as someone who has been absent without leave for 30 days.

    Chiroux stood fast in his resolve to not report for duty on June 15.

    The penalty for desertion is death. He is taking a terrible risk on behalf of many people. Such courage!

    by cotterperson on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:57:13 PM PDT

    •  Matthis Chiroux will need our support to IAVA

      to defend him, please donate what you can

      by IngeniousGirl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:12:11 PM PDT

•  The need for defense, gone bad

  Yes we need a military to protect the nation.

  Yes we need patriotic men and women to sign up and risk their lives protecting us.

  Yes we need a chain of command and we need soldiers to follow orders.

  The above three define a conundrum. What if the war is wrong, and violates US law? How can you have individual soldiers making the decisions to fight or not?

  I have a suggestion. If individuals want to contest an existing law they do it by demonstrating that it effects them and that it is unconstitutional, in court. I would suggest that a group of soldiers contest the war to the Congress and the Congress hears all sides, essentially has a trial, and makes a decision to un-declare war or not. It's not specifically in the Constitution but it would follow from sole Congressional powers to declare war.

  by The Wizard on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:26:34 PM PDT

•  It HAD to take this long

  The gestalt had to be right for these vets to get the respect they deserve. And thank heavens, the wheel has finally turned.

  by anotherCt Dem on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:32:07 PM PDT

•  A salute to captain Luis Montalvan,

  Ex-Marine Jason Lemieux, army sergeant Kristofer Goldsmith and Matthis Chiroux.

  by notquitedelilah on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:35:22 PM PDT

•  Wow--it's 1971 all over again.

  And I hope to God the Congress listens this time.

  by boofdah on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:37:00 PM PDT

  •  What year will it be when someone says,

    "Man, its like 2008 all over again . . ."

    by Reepicheep on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:39:51 PM PDT

    •  Hopefully never

      Hopefully, we won't see these kind of shit-storms again in living memory.  

      These soldiers deserve so much better than this.  And when I see these guys, I immediately think about the Iraqis, and how much worse they have it still.  

      by rcald on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:54:59 PM PDT

      •  No, it will all happen again.

        And again, and again, and again.

        But you can stop it once. That's enough. That's all anybody can ever do.

        Just stop it this time.

        by Canadian Reader on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:30:44 AM PDT

  •  not too many of them showed up

    I didn't see today's hearings but there were very few Congress-critters at the hearings yesterday. I know it was a very busy day on the floor of the House but it's too bad that it happened on a day when so many had such built in excuses not to sit there and hear the tragedy that has been wrought by their actions. I wish these hearings hadn't been relegated to an unofficial committee hearing.

    by kainah on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:50:52 PM PDT

•  God bless them for speaking out.

  There is courage in battle, but this is another kind of courage.  To stand up, knowing that a lot of your fellow soldiers won't understand.  To stand up, knowing that you will be called a traitor and a coward, and that you will be accused of leaving your buddies behind.  That is a special kind of courage, a spun-steel courage.

  I am furious that these soldiers take all of the risks, do all of the fighting and suffering and dying, and those Hallibuton and Blackwater goons just pocket the money and turn their backs.

  by Reepicheep on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:38:11 PM PDT

  •  these guys

    are my kind of heroes.

    by nicolemm on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:00:30 PM PDT

•  I hope this gets widely reported and stays in the

  news for weeks. It's probably the most important story out there right now when it comes to Iraq. And maybe it could change a few minds of the 20% or so who still support this war.

  by Kyle the Mainer on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:40:59 PM PDT

  •  This Won't Change the "20%'s" Minds

    They'll say these men went to Iraq "unbalanced" or that GWB can't be held responsible for "a few bad apples." Hm...deja vu' all over again...where have I heard that before?

    by CityLightsLover on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:17:49 PM PDT

    •  or that us libruls have brainwashed them n/t

      by whitewidow on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:18:25 PM PDT

  •  The IVAW Winter Soldier hearings

    got almost no coverage which was extremely disappointing. Maybe this will get more but I'm not going to hold my breath. Unfortunately, this still isn't a story the media wants to tell. At the moment, the only mainstream story that is showing up on Google News is from Yahoo News.

    by kainah on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:53:43 PM PDT

  •  What the administration couldn't chop up into

    little pieces and censor and repress coming out of Iraq were the conversations servicepeople were able to have with their families either on leave or when they finally were discharged.  Those conversations have helped turn the karma wheel in terms of public sentiment on this war.  Think of how many millions of Americans know someone who has been killed or maimed or traumatized in this war.  Think of how many millions of Americans have buddies or family members who have seen things that have made them realize how wrong the war is.  Millions and millions of Americans know first hand from the horse's mouth just what a failure and a monstrosity this war is.  I do believe that this is one factor contributing to the abuse of stop-loss and also of multiple rotations with reduced leaves:  I think the government wants the soldiers to be able to talk as little as possible and as infrequently as possible to friends and family.  Because when the soldiers do talk about what they've seen, the minds of those around them change.

    by concernedamerican on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:34:00 PM PDT

•  Tip Jar Please ...

  Thanks for bringing this to our attention.  Not a peep out of the MSM.

  by tamasher on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:41:13 PM PDT

•  This is important

  I wish that the MSM would really be give us the news.
  I miss that time when the whole family would watch the evening news and actually learn something about the world.

  I have a 10 year old boy and I worry about his future and the decisions he will have to make. I hope he is a brave and honorable man. Brave to stand up for his beliefs and honorable to take responsibility for his actions.

  These men represent all of that and more.

  by COwoman on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:48:50 PM PDT

•  Thanks, Greg. Rec'd and Tipped. n/t

  by Meteor Blades on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:52:32 PM PDT

•  Wonder how long it will...

  ...take the war-loving, troops-hating Republicans to frame these Heroes as unpatriotic?

   Boehner will turn on  the water-works while he opines about how it's  regrettable these soldiers have been under so much stress, they are now losing their bearings (or some such bullshit).  Or he'll accuse them of "not being patient enough to keep fighting until we win."

  It there is one thing Bush & his street bosses & capos can't stand, it's American soldiers telling the truth about his Iraq clusterfuck.

  I look for these Heroes to be severely smeared by the Bush/Cheney propaganda machine.

  by wyvern on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:56:33 PM PDT

  •  Not very long we need to be ready to stand up

    For all of them

    by IngeniousGirl on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:14:19 PM PDT

•  Thanks to all for your comments

  Sorry I forgot about tip jar again, but, you know...there are more important things.

  If you missed it earlier, I hosted SusanG this week in a panel at the E&P Interactive show and had dinner with her the night before.  She is swell.

  BTW, I am old enough (unfortunately) to have lived through the Vietnam and post-Vietnam soldier tragedies and wrote some of the earliest stuff on Agent Orange. The echoes today are troubling to say the least.

  by GregMitch on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:01:48 PM PDT

  •  FWIW

    You are my new favorite diarist.  Thanks so much for your excellent and important work.  I'm so glad to see it on the rec list.

    by joanneleon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:30:03 PM PDT

  •  Thank you so much..

    for bringing this to light. Your Diary and all links are a must read for those people out there who think every soldier in Iraq is happy to be there, believes in why the United States is there, and supports George Bush. It's about time our soldiers are speaking out again this conflict. They are the only ones who truly know what is going on. I too was around for Vietnam and it's aftermath. This is similar, but in much smaller scale. I hope and pray this conflict does not go on so long as to lose as many soldiers as we did way back then. Thank you Greg for your thoughts keeping us informed.

    by lovescats on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:47:17 PM PDT

  •  NOTE: ALL links to the C-Span session ...

    ... no longer provide access to the 15 May 2008 session (as of 2245 PDT, 16 May 2008).

    I certainly hope someone has the entire session copied and will be willing to post it.  

    All Americans need to see that session, not just 2 or 3 min vid clips of it on YouTube.

    Thank you for all you are doing,
    Bob

    by understandinglife on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:47:04 PM PDT

•  One of many ironies:

  These guys - who, in my book are heroes for telling it like it is and following their own moral compasses - will, in all likelihood get nuked by the reich-wing nuts and chickenhawks... Those very same "support the troops" people who don't have the balls to go in the first place. And I suspect the reason they don't is that even they (the chickenhawks, etc.) know this war is wrong and immoral, deep-down in their fucked-up lizard-brains somewhere.

  Because, let's face it: Wouldn't 90 percent of us take a bullet that was really aimed at our friends, families and country? If Al Qaida was hitting Myrtle Beach in waves of attacks, hell... I'd be there to help. I bet even a lot of chickenhawks would too. But they won't take a bullet for this bullshit war because Iraq couldn't attack us (nor did it) even if it wanted to and they know it.

  Hell, I suppose it's possible these veterans could be prosecuted by the military if they're told to go back and don't. (Pure speculation on my part; I don't know) But they've really put their ass on the line for a bigger cause and my hat's off to 'em.

  George W. Bush, single-handedly pushed the metaphorical "Humpty Dumpty" off the wall in Iraq and all the king's horses and all the king's men will never put "him" back together again. He broke it and now he can't fix it, so he'll just stick us with it while he and his buddies walk away, laughing all the way to the bank.

  It's also likely these vets - like Sgt. Goldsmith - will have trouble living with what they've witnessed over there for long time. (I probably would)  And the coup de grace is when Bush has the unmitigated balls to cut funding to the VA and we see memos instructing physicians to stop diagnosing PTSD because it's too expensive.

  If this country survives this president it'll be a f***ing miracle 'cause he's pretty much single-handedly let the whole thing slide to hell in a handbasket.

  But somehow, he still manages to keep topping the previous, unbelievable f***-up. The mind reels. Thanks for the story, though!

  by Snud on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:10:21 PM PDT

  •  Here's an irony for you

    30 years ago, it was left wing anti-war activists who shunned returning soldiers.  Now, it's right-wing pro-war folks who want to ignore them and deny them help.  

    How long until the left is able to claim the mantle of America's troop supporters?  Or has it happened already?

    by Hunter Huxley on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:33:47 PM PDT

    •  false

      Anti-war activists never shunned returning Vietnam veterans.

      They protested the war but never, ever the veterans. And they were responsible for helping many, many veterans.

      This is a lie propagated by war-mongers of that era.

      by whitewidow on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:23:26 PM PDT

      •  So right.

        Try to find a GI that says he was spat on when he returned from Nam.  It's been repeated a million times, but try to find one of these folks.  I won't say it NEVER happened, there are idiots everywhere.  But the warmongers would have you think that was the standard practice for us DFHs.  Total Bullshit.

        by beemerr90s on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:22:57 PM PDT

        •  You will find posters online

          who will say that they are Vietnam vets, and vow up and down that they were spat upon.

          Some of them are just lying (as people have been known to do, online); these may not even be vets of any description. Some have processed their stress and cognitive dissonance about the war into a vivid false memory of being spat upon. And some... are in a weird, undefined space somewhere between those two cases, because human memory is a far more fragile, malleable thing than most people realize.

          by Canadian Reader on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:47:16 AM PDT

      •  The propaganda machine was in place then too!

        by Septima on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:26:06 PM PDT

    •  This is a Repub lie

      Go away troll. I was there. I was a "long hair" commune member in that era, and NO ONE, spat, hated or otherwise maligned our soldiers. We all knew they were forced into this- they had orders to take from those who didn't give a crap about them. No one blamed the soldiers for what they did. In cold hard fact, we felt more sympathy for them for the awful dilemma they were in. I personally met many returning soldiers who came back all messed up- mostly shell shocked. Anyone who wore Army clothes was treated as if they were injured, and many were- if not physically, then mentally. Our commune took in those who needed a peaceful place to find reality again. To find the truth. To find who they were before 'Nam took it all away. It was terrible seeing what war did to a person, and how they struggled to be normal afterwards.

      So let me tell you this, you lie. You lie. You lie. You weren't there, you never saw it first hand, you never helped any of them.

      And I will add this: When this war ends, America will have the same thing on its hands once again: the PTSD, the shell shock, the wounded psyche, and I will guaran damn tee you that it will be us "lefties" who will be there to help them, and not your sorry ass. You'll be too busy playing golf to bother your beautiful mind with helping your fellow man.  

      You hate America and its soldiers.

      by azureblue on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:30:53 PM PDT

      •  Dude, i'm sorry

        i didnt know.  im 30, i wasnt born.

        by Hunter Huxley on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:02:47 PM PDT

        •  Rec'd for prompt apology.

          It takes real class to do that. Good on you, Hunter Huxley.

          by Canadian Reader on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:51:13 AM PDT

        •  You've got my rec for this acknowledgment.

          As you can see by my post just below yours, IMHO this particular poster was entirely unjustified in his over-heated reaction to your comment.

          Unfortunately it's hard to debunk this modern myth about the Vietnam era and the war protesters.

          BTW, used army jackets and other gear were very much in style among them; I remember loads of kids at my art school ca. 1968-72 (definitely all long-haired lefties) combing secondhand stores looking for them. Have you ever seen a photo of John Lennon wearing his? It's the second item here.

          by Donna in Rome on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:43:23 AM PDT

      •  I would have liked to rec your comment

        because in general I agree with what you say about what really happened, and it's like I remember things back then (although I was never personally a hippie or member of a commune).

        But you were too harsh on the poster, insulting him and calling him a troll and a liar. There was nothing in his post to warrant that; you let yourself be overcome and blinded by your own anger. He was only repeating something that unfortunately has become a common belief in this distorted world the right-wingers have created. But he was saying it from the viewpoint of someone supporting the left, not the right, having noticed what he saw as an ironic contradiction.

        To top it off, your last line -- together with the last part of the paragraph before it -- was entirely, totally uncalled for. That, for me, nullified the validity of your whole post.

        by Donna in Rome on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:33:11 AM PDT

      •  No, it won't be the same

        this time, it will be a 1000 times worse.

        Most of those guys only had to endure Vietnam once. These soldiers have been back again, and again, and again...

        by mmacdDE on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:34:56 AM PDT

•  incredible, though limited, information

  Why is it that it is a struggle to get the facts on the ground out?

  Why is it that the voices of real participants in the "war on terror" are so hard to hear?

  Why is it that the words of the engaged are treated as words from betrayers?

  Why is it that the media generally treat these as disgruntled soldiers, instead of on-the-ground witnesses?

  And why is it that we aren't lionizing these guys for their courage in coming out before it's safe? That is, in February 2009, it'll be safe -- but now, they  face retribution.

  Ugly, disgusting, appalling, shaming, gut-wrenching testimony will arrive with the Obama administration. We should be sure to support those with the courage to be speaking out now.

  by mwmwm on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:12:36 PM PDT

  •  Pretty hard to take this kind of stand

    When you know the least you might get is dishonorable discharge and loss of all or any benefits you might have been promised.  At the worst you could spend serious prison time for speaking out.